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Old 10-26-2007
REMOV REMOV is offline
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Default [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

I am looking for informaction about technical specifications of the new Italian 5,56 mm Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle (length, weight, barrels length etc.).

By the way, I am curious about the name - the "X" in the "ARX" name will be removed when army officialy adopts the rifle?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 10-26-2007
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Thumbs down Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

Technical datas not yet available officially and definitively. The weapon is not yet in its definitive configuration, it has been shown in several Defence expos but it still has to be considered in its final developmental stages.
By the way, a full article has been published on the June 2007 issue of the Italian gun magazine ARMI E TIRO (which I haven't at reach but I'll try to trace back if you really need it).

The "X" in the name obviously stays for "Experimental", but the official name it will take within the Italian military depends from... the OFFICIAL NAME that Beretta will decide to give it. The Italian military has not a denomination system like the "M" for the U.S. and the "L" for the UK. They adopt the stuff naming it with their commercial names. The AR-70/90 is named such because that's the commercial name given to it by Beretta, so for the M92-FS, and so on. The MINIMI is called the "Minimi", the BM-59 (predecessor of the 70/90 system in Italian service) was officially called BM-59 but nicknamed FAL (that stands for "Fucile Automatico Leggero", or "Light Automatic Rifle"; no relation with the Belgian one except that "Fucile Automatico Leggero" and "Fusil Automatique Lėger" mean the same thing).

By the way, I still don't bet my ass on the Italian military fully adopting the Beretta ARX-160. The Army units that had to receive the first shipments for evaluation as far as of June 2007 (like ARMI E TIRO wrote in its article) actually still have to see them, except for one. And here's a little curio about: the ARMI E TIRO article written about the ARX-160 has been made NOT with assistance by BERETTA, but thanks to that very same Military unit. When it was known, Beretta pissed its pants and APPEARENTLY halted all shipments of trial-and-evaluation ARX-160 to all other units that had to receive them (two of which are here in Sardinia and I know well). The article was briefly published on the ARMI E TIRO magazine website but quickly disappeared. This should give you an idea of what is, or could be, going on with the project. Many think that the gun is POS, and I am with them.
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Old 10-26-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate your help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
Technical datas not yet available officially and definitively
I understand, but some unofficial datas exists, right? For example length, barrel options (assault rifle, carbine, light machine gun), weight.
Quote:
By the way, a full article has been published on the June 2007 issue of the Italian gun magazine ARMI E TIRO (which I haven't at reach but I'll try to trace back if you really need it).
Yes, please. Is it a chance to send me a scan?
Quote:
By the way, I still don't bet my ass on the Italian military fully adopting the Beretta ARX-160
I heard that about 10 to 30 thousands new assault rifles will be purchased along with the Soldato Futuro system.
Quote:
When it was known, Beretta pissed its pants and APPEARENTLY halted all shipments of trial-and-evaluation ARX-160 to all other units that had to receive them
Yeah, I tried to get some informations from Beretta representatives at Eurosatory and IWA, but they only talked in generalities. Unfortunately I wasn't at DSEI in London. Someone told me that the AR-160 was shown there very first time, not the wooden mock-up as usual, but a assault rifle.
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Old 10-26-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
Thanks a lot, I really appreciate your help. I understand, but some unofficial datas exists, right? For example length, barrel options (assault rifle, carbine, light machine gun), weight.


Of course, as far as for what concerns the current stage. I will post them when I'll find them, but as for the barrel options, I can only tell you that the weapon will only be available in an 18"-bbl model. It is not going to be a modular weapon or a family of weapons, it will be a single assault rifle (no, wait, "carbine", if you consider "carbine" anything under 20 inches).

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
Is it a chance to send me a scan?


Once I'll find it. I don't even have that issue. BTW, I can send it to you "privately", I will not put it here openly. I know for certain that people from other gun magazines know that I contribute to this website, and constantly watch it. If I scan the pages and put them here where everybody can see it, I'm pretty f****d.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
I heard that about 10 to 30 thousands new assault rifles will be purchased along with the Soldato Futuro system.

Replace "WILL be purchased" with "MAY be purchased". We still don't even know when the "Soldato Futuro" system will enter service (unless it gets canceled, which is unlikely at the current stage of development, but not impossible). By the way, I seriously doubt that it will be employed in such high numbers (10 to 30 thousands) within the next 10 years.

Also most of the units that will have to employ the "Soldato Futuro" system and should have received the new Beretta assault rifle to test it in current theatres of operation (like Afghanistan) are receiving the Bushmaster M4-A2 carbine instead.

I have contacts within a member of an Italian Special Forces regiment (9th "Col Moschin") that had a chance to evaluate the AR(X)-160, and as far as I have been told, the Beretta rifle is really a piece of crap if compared with the M4 (which is what they mainly have) or the Heckler&Koch G36 (which is what they would want and what they have in small numbers).

Another Italian Special Forces regiment (RIAM, the newly-formed SPECOPS unit of the Italian Air Force) had to receive the ARX-160 for full deployment, but, appearently after the testing, changed mind and purchased high numbers of the G-36 and G-36K, and is currently evaluating the IWI Tavor.
This, to give you an idea of how the AR(X)-160 thing is probably going to end out. It is an AR-70/90 (nothing, I repeat, NOTHING has changed in its mechanics) dressed up in a plastic chassis. Even WORSE than the XM8-LAR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
I tried to get some informations from Beretta representatives at Eurosatory and IWA, but they only talked in generalities. Unfortunately I wasn't at DSEI in London. Someone told me that the AR-160 was shown there very first time, not the wooden mock-up as usual, but a assault rifle.


The Beretta representatives kept their mouth shut about the AR(X)-160 at the IWA. They had functional samples at the MILIPOL, but kept them under glass. Again, the only ones who could actually write something similar to a review (they actually "clandestinely" assisted to the Military T&E) were the ARMI E TIRO people, and Beretta is still pretty pissed off with them. Possibly because they were witness of something that Beretta wouldn't like the general public to know, but even should this be true, ARMI E TIRO didn't wrote anything about and it's unlikely that they will ever do it: Beretta's advertisement simply carries too much of money to the Italian gun magazines to loose it by writing anything wrong. Hence why you will not find any negative reviews about Beretta products such as the newest 90-TWO, PX4-STORM and CX4-STORM, which are not going very well on the market and aren't even that much good actually.
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Old 10-26-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
I will post them when I'll find them, but as for the barrel options, I can only tell you that the weapon will only be available in an 18"-bbl model
Are you sure? I've got a pictures of the AR(X)-160 assault rifle with 508 mm (20") barrel, but I have also seen a model with a shorter barrel, maybe 457 mm (18").
Quote:
It is not going to be a modular weapon or a family of weapons, it will be a single assault rifle (no, wait, "carbine", if you consider "carbine" anything under 20 inches).
In Polish classification system "carbine" is an assault rifle (i.e. fed by intermediate cartridge) with a barrel no longer than 368 mm (14,5"). But as I wrote before, I have seen at least two versions of the AR(X)-160. So I think it will be not a "modular" rifle, but "universal", like Steyr AUG, with different fast exchangeable barrels.
Quote:
Once I'll find it. I don't even have that issue. BTW, I can send it to you "privately", I will not put it here openly
Sure, I understand.
Quote:
Replace "WILL be purchased" with "MAY be purchased"
Quote:
We still don't even know when the "Soldato Futuro" system will enter service (unless it gets canceled, which is unlikely at the current stage of development, but not impossible).
All of the three Soldato Futuro prototypes send to the Infantry School went back to the designers, because there were software problems. But I think that the system will be introduced to the Italian Army, slowly but still.
Quote:
By the way, I seriously doubt that it will be employed in such high numbers (10 to 30 thousands) within the next 10 years.
We will see.
Quote:
Also most of the units that will have to employ the "Soldato Futuro" system and should have received the new Beretta assault rifle to test it in current theatres of operation (like Afghanistan) are receiving the Bushmaster M4-A2 carbine instead.
Interesting. Bushmasters M4A3 carbines were also bought by Polish special force unit GROM, but commandoes complains about it.
Quote:
I have contacts within a member of an Italian Special Forces regiment (9th "Col Moschin") that had a chance to evaluate the AR(X)-160, and as far as I have been told, the Beretta rifle is really a piece of crap if compared with the M4 (which is what they mainly have) or the Heckler&Koch G36 (which is what they would want and what they have in small numbers).
But why?
Quote:
This, to give you an idea of how the AR(X)-160 thing is probably going to end out. It is an AR-70/90 (nothing, I repeat, NOTHING has changed in its mechanics) dressed up in a plastic chassis
In my opinion there are changes in mechanics - there is a selection "device for right or left-hand cartridge case ejection" (Ulrich Zedrosser patent for Beretta Armi S.p.A.) as well as exchangeable barrel.
Quote:
Even WORSE than the XM8-LAR
Funny thing, XM8 is just a G36 in new dress
Quote:
They had functional samples at the MILIPOL, but kept them under glass.
None was able to take a closer look at it?
Quote:
Hence why you will not find any negative reviews about Beretta products such as the newest 90-TWO, PX4-STORM and CX4-STORM, which are not going very well on the market and aren't even that much good actually.
Interesting. What is wrong with the Px4 Storm pistol? I am particulary interested, because there is a huge competition for a new pistol for the Polish Police (over 25 000 pistols), and the Px4 is one of the competitors.
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Old 10-26-2007
REMOV REMOV is offline
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160



Take a look there are two versions of the AR(X)-160 - carbine (14,5" ?) and standard (18" ?) assault rifle. I have also picture of the 20" barrel model.


Old vs. new assault rifle
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Old 10-26-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
Are you sure? I've got a pictures of the AR(X)-160 assault rifle with 508 mm (20") barrel, but I have also seen a model with a shorter barrel, maybe 457 mm (18"). In Polish classification system "carbine" is an assault rifle (i.e. fed by intermediate cartridge) with a barrel no longer than 368 mm (14,5"). But as I wrote before, I have seen at least two versions of the AR(X)-160. So I think it will be not a "modular" rifle, but "universal", like Steyr AUG, with different fast exchangeable barrels.


There is no such thing as a quick barrel change system on the AR(X)-160, currently. Plans are to make it in 18"-BBL only; 20"-BBL models were the early mock-ups. The fact is that the Italian Army isn't actually interested in procuring rifles, carbines, long rifles, etc. They want a "one size fits all" weapon. The Beretta 70/90 system comprised two short-barrelled carbines, which were adopted but NEVER procured in other quantities other than for early evaluation and Special Forces issue (Italian SPECOPS however quickly discarded them due to their poor optionals compatibility).

As for your picture, bud, as far as I know, the two portrayed above are NOT Italian soldiers, if you know what I mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
All of the three Soldato Futuro prototypes send to the Infantry School went back to the designers, because there were software problems. But I think that the system will be introduced to the Italian Army, slowly but still. We will see.


The fact that it will be introduced is almost out of doubt. The fact that it will arrive fast and steady is at least disputable. The personnel that have tried it also complained about how much it encumbers movement and how sensible the entire system still is to environmental aggressives (water, mud, dust, etc.). It's too much of weight and burden to carry for the modern infantryman yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
Bushmasters M4A3 carbines were also bought by Polish special force unit GROM, but commandoes complains about it.


The Italian Special Forces got their Bushmaster M4s and love them. About the problems reported by the GROM personnel, I seriously couldn't tell. The Italian Special Forces like the M4 so much that it outright replaced all Steyr AUGs and half of the H&K MP5s in service up to that moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
But why? In my opinion there are changes in mechanics - there is a selection "device for right or left-hand cartridge case ejection" (Ulrich Zedrosser patent for Beretta Armi S.p.A.) as well as exchangeable barrel.


The reversible case ejection is the only major change. The exchangeable barrel is another story. There's no quick barrel change possibility. At the current moment, the barrel change is possible on the AR(X)-160 but requires an armorer. There are no plans for a long-barrel (es. "Sharpshooter" or "Light machinegun") version of the AR(X)-160 simply because such roles are not traditionally present in any way in the Italian armed forces. The snipers use sniper rifles, not under-potentiated "Marksman" rifles. And there's no "Automatic rifle", there's "Machinegun". Once there was an MG-42/59 (.7'62x51mm MG-42, a.k.a. Mg3), now there's the MINIMI. There's nothing that fills the gap between the standard assault rifle and the squad automatic weapon in the post-WW2 Italian Army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
Funny thing, XM8 is just a G36 in new dress


Not exactly. The XM8 is a G-36 re-engineered to be cheaper in manufacture ('cause the US Army required low prices) and in a new dress that's been badly engineered so that it creates lots of troubles (overheating above all). Have you ever handled one? It looks just what it is: a cheapo American copy of the G-36.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
None was able to take a closer look at it?

As far as I have been told, no. Looks like the people at the Beretta booth weren't particularly happy of having people handling the rifle or snapping pictures "up close and personal" to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
Interesting. What is wrong with the Px4 Storm pistol? I am particulary interested, because there is a huge competition for a new pistol for the Polish Police (over 25 000 pistols), and the Px4 is one of the competitors.

Nothing with the .40-S&W and .45-ACP versions. Lots with the 9mm versions (9x19mm and 9x21mm-IMI).
The fact is that the weapon works with a rotating/translating barrel system, which is perfect to dissipate quickly and effectively huge quantities of recoil energy. It is so perfect that it dissipates more energy than a 9mm round can create. The result is that the 9mm PX4-STORM is likely to jam if you don't use hot loads. The .40-Short&Weak and .45-ACP versions don't have this problem.

If you ask me, the whole AR(X)-160 is a waste. Beretta has a partnership with FN, and Italian forces have often expressed interest for a bull-pup, some Special Forces procured the AUG, which had the only problem to eject too close to the user's face and require parts change to be left-handed. Beretta should do something like a re-engineering of the F-2000, and the Italian Army would procure it immediately.

But yet, with all the "friends in the high ranks" that Beretta has, the Italian Armed Forces would re-adopt musketoons if Beretta offers them...
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Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 10-26-2007 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 10-26-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
There is no such thing as a quick barrel change system on the AR(X)-160, currently. Plans are to make it in 18"-BBL only; 20"-BBL models were the early mock-ups.
You know, it is strange, I have a pictures of the 20" barrel lenght AR(X)-160 (unfortunately copyright protected) with - as told me - quick barrel change funtion. My informer told me also, that representatives of the Beretta show him how to change a barrel and - as he say - actually do it.
Quote:
As for your picture, bud, as far as I know, the two portrayed above are NOT Italian soldiers, if you know what I mean.
OK, but I am focused on the rifles with different barrel length not the models
Quote:
The personnel that have tried it also complained about how much it encumbers movement and how sensible the entire system still is to environmental aggressives (water, mud, dust, etc.).
So it means that the old Beretta SC90 assault rifle is more reliable than a new AR(X)-160?
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Old 10-26-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
So it means that the old Beretta SC90 assault rifle is more reliable than a new AR(X)-160?

It is not a matter of reliability. The fact is that the 70/90 rifles and the AR(X)-160 are 90% the same rifle, only the 160 has some more bells-and-whistles. It doesn't changes much, maybe it's a little bit lighter, and yes, maybe it will (one day) made in many barrel options, but it doesn't represents much of a change. It is an overpriced XM8-wannabe that is NOT battlefield-performing much better than the 70/90.
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Old 10-26-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

Comprehensibly:
The new beretta system is really just negating two factors with their design. It's a more secure, proven gas op on a supported barrel. for standard combat an 18" barrel is sound even with a 1:7 twist out to standard distance even in 3-round burst over fullauto.
I would not so readily compare the newer berettaa system to an HK but to the Magpul Masada.
If anything for compounded purpose-- the barrel issue should be then considered for two more lengths beyond 20"-- 24" and 26".
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